Talk:Brsjak revolt

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Last edits

I wonder why the additional infrmation which I added was deleted 2 times with these 2 summaries:

1. there is no evidence that the revolt supported Bulgaria, adding refs
2. Giza does not state that it was a "Bulgarian revolt"

My answers:

It is not necessary to have some support from Bulgarian state in order to keep imformation about the fact that this Revolt is considered by Bulgarian and some other authors part of Bulgarian national liberation movement. The example with the Polish historian A. Giza is in this sence: Giza considers this efforts in the context of armed Bulgarian protest against the treaty in Berlin and the fragmentation of Bulgarian lands - въоръжения протест на българите срещу берлинския диктат. We are not talking for Bulgarian state, but for Bulgarians.
It is not problem to discuss the point above (I'll point more sources if needed), but why meantime all ather my contributions have been deleted? For example the well sourced information about the Ilia Delia's participation in Bulgarian military unit in Russian army. Is it vandalism or something else? Regards,--Simin (talk) 23:32, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Where is this stated? What are the evidence that his was part of the Bulgarian national liberation movement? As far as I know, the Brsjak Revolt was not part of the Bulgarian movement, but a local uprising in which rebel leaders sought Serbian aid and representation. Please refrain from POV.--Zoupan 23:57, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You can find "въоръжения протест на българите срещу берлинския диктат" in the link to the book of A. Giza.

It seems from your categorical words that you are familiar only with the Serbian POV (before 1944) which is not NPOV. It will be pleasure for me to show you another POVs. Thanks to you I started to read more sources and I'll add them. Please be patient and do not delete my contributions if they don't match your preconceptions. Best regards, --Simin (talk) 18:07, 4 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No. You are to stop adding bare references, and present the sources, with citations, here.--Zoupan 18:57, 4 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think that you have right just to delete my text and the references? You can ask clarification in the text with the relevant temlate.

I'll add more citations, although my experience has not been encouraging - you deleted the text even when there were citations in the text itself. Example - the report of the British consul.

How you can expect I to add references with citations in the cases when you didn't do it? For example: It was organized by Ilija Delija, Rista Kostadinović, Micko Krstić, Anđelko Tanasević, Dimitar Chakrev and Mihail Chakrev. ^[1]. Your text (about the first 4 leaders) is without references and my (the last 2 leaders) is with references, but you deleted my text under the pretext thet there weren't citations. What is that?--Simin (talk) 19:47, 4 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, you should really stop assuming you own articles. No editor is entitled to prohibit other editors from doing something. Especially if the editor in question is doing the same thing. I also fail to see how an article sourced entirely by Serbian sources is NPOV, while any other sources, be it Bulgarian, Polish, or whatever, are, in fact, POV. --Laveol ^T 22:59, 4 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Mercia MacDermott also claims in this revolt participated Bulgarians. Look at "Freedom or Death. The Life of Gotsé Delchev" pp. 55-57. Zoupan your constant statements that Serbian nationalist sources from the early 20th. century are the most neutral ones are ridiculous. 46.16.193.70 (talk) 06:07, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Laveol: Don't misjudge my approachment to users that pop up from nowhere. The problem lies in several edits, such as assigning the Chakre brothers as leaders of the whole movement (when the citation clearly says that they were rebel band leaders after 1878, in Kruševo), and claiming that this was a Bulgarian uprising based on citations that do not explicitly say so. I asked for the user to present the sources here, with citations, but he refused to.--Zoupan 10:17, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Zoupan:, thank you for "users that pop up from nowhere". Should I receive it as personal attack?

About the example above:

Chakrev brothers were some of the leaders among all other persons already pointed. Since the revolutionary movement encompasses different regions, there were many leaders. None of the pointed leaders was a single leader. The beginning of the citation in question says that they have arrived in Krushevo in the late 1878 and have started to organize the revolutionary activity. As the text is too long, the next paragraphs about the growth of the revolutionary network have been skipped. I had added the end - "The initiators and leaders of the detachments Chakrevtsi brothers were discovered." (They were discovered in the spring of 1881.) The keyword here is "leaders". The source strongly underlines their leadership. The refference is for this.

Could you please let me know what exactly I refused to do in terms of citations? If you have any doubts, please let me know in order to have opportunity to make the situation clear fo you.--Simin (talk) 19:18, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to add that Dime Chakrev wasn't less leader than Micko Krstić, for example. Same as Micko he was vojvoda (a military leader), but unlike Micko he had an additional important role - he was also a sinificant organizer of revolutionary network. The sources are clear. Zoupan, there is no reason to move this information anywhere except where the information for Micko is.--Simin (talk) 20:45, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Simin: the citation from Британски дипломатически документи по българския национален въпрос is hand-written, why?--Zoupan 10:29, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by "hand-written"? The text in the book is bilingual. I found 3 typos made by me and I'll fix them.--Simin (talk) 19:18, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Историја на македонскиот народ, книга втора, Скопје 1969, с. 104-106.(History of the Macedonian people, vol. 2, Skopje, 1969, p. 104-105)

Ilija Delija

This Ilija Delija seems to have been Ilyo Voyvoda (Spektar. Institut za literatura pri Filološkiot fakultet. 1995. востаничките чети на дедо Иљо Малешевски, Спиро Црне, на Брсјачката буна..).--Zoupan 10:23, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

However, sources speak of one Čerkez Ilija, a teacher and leader, active in Kriva Palanka.--Zoupan 10:35, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

He, with Čakr-paša, joined the band of Micko.--Zoupan 10:42, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

According Tsarnushanov and other sources Ilija Delija (Captain Iliya) was from Malo Ilino (Demir Hisar), not from Berovo. Tsarnushanov describes quite different the way of Iliya after the end of the revolt than Ilyo Voyvoda's life.--Simin (talk) 19:18, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Историја на македонскиот народ, книга втора, Скопје 1969, с. 104-106.(History of the Macedonian people, vol. 2, Skopje, 1969, p. 104-105)

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